Mailing List Message #13307
From: Bill Cole <>
Subject: Re: I can log in to Sims via the internet since I use a PC running Windows 2000 with Netscape or IE or Mozillia.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:12:11 -0400
To: SIMS Discussions <>
At 6:37 AM -0500 8/8/03, Ron Johnson  imposed structure on a stream of electrons, yielding:
 We have a friend near that has a email account with us ....we
 setup over at her house & she can receive from our server, but
 cannot send ...she get a timed-connection. However she can send
 via her ISP's SMTP server it goes thru. She use a dialup connection
 with MSN. She has Macintosh 6300 I think with Outlook early version
 & Eudora 5. They both do not work when try to send out from our
 SMTP server.
 We setup the account over here it work fine. I also setup it
 over at over at other friend she has a Compaq PC with XP using
 Outlook and it worked there she also has dialup connection which
 happen to use MSN also. We did to eliminate the possibility of
 it being something with MSN

If you've got 'Relay for Clients Only' enabled (if it's not, your an open
relay and contributing to the spam problem), that's probably the problem.
If that's the case, you need to do one of the following:

1. Have your friend send mail through her ISP's server(s). There shouldn't
be any reason for her not to.

2. If your friend has a fixed IP address, add it to your Client Hosts list.
Don't do this if it's _not_ a fixed address (e.g. she uses a dial-up or DSL
with dynamically assigned address, etc.).

3. Set the 'For xx min authenticated IPs are treated as Client ones' to
something other than 'Never'. Then, after checking her mail, your friend
can send mail through your server for whatever time period you configure.

4. Enable 'Advertise AUTH capability' and have your friend use SMTP AUTH
when sending through your server. This may not be an option if she's using
an older e-mail client that doesn't support AUTH. Also, her client may not
call it 'SMTP AUTH'.

Let's see:  I have 'Relay For Clients Only Checked' am not an Open Relay.
I learned my lesson about that, after using EIMS 1.3.1!  I have
'Authenticated IPs treated as Clients Ones' set for 30 seconds, although
I'm wondering if I could safely get away with a longer time limit -- just
to make it easier on the users I might get in the future who can't do SMTP
AUTH?  Would the max limit of 10 mins, be dangerous, or is that even pretty
safe?  SIMS is advertising 'Auth' capability.  Cannot add her IP to the
'Client Host List' as she's a dialup user.  Tim tried using the one
friend's user info on another friend's PC, (that friend also has MSN as
their provider,) and all worked perfectly.  The friend who is having the
problem, is running an old Mac with System 8.6 on it, and we tried Eudora
5.0 on it, and no dice!  Tim seems to indicate that it's timing out, or
something like that.  Recieving works great, sending just doesn't happen!
All he & I can figure is that her machine is just too slow and antiquated
for what we're doing.  Our friend has told us that she's had other problems
with other things, such as websites, etc, so it's not just the eMail thing.
The logs never seem to indicate she's even tried sending out through her
account on our server, and even doing a send, immediately after checking
the mail, doesn't do any good, whatsoever!  My best guess is that it's
something specific to her particular machine & configuration, perhaps even
her modem.  Am I missing something.

It is 95% certain that any MSN or other national-service dialup is subject to port 25 filtering. This means that on that connection, the only SMTP servers a user can get to AT ALL are those run by their ISP. This is a tactic of high effectiveness and very debatable correctness against the spammers who were (3 years ago) buying stacks of dialup accounts through various fraudulent and semi-fraudulent means and using them as disposable access accounts to send spam through open relays.

The solution is to either figure out a way to get a path to the SIMS SMTP listener on some other port and use a mail client that can handle that (587 is actually a good choice, as it is reserved for the email submission protocol, an SMTP subset) or to have your user send mail out through her ISP's mail servers.

There is NO CHANCE that this is a matter of a computer that is too old. The client-side elements of SMTP needed today were being done by desktops 15 years ago and were no challenge then. What is possible (and would explain the fact that this seems to work on a PC) is that MSN no longer supports anything less than OS X on the Mac side and Win98 on the PC side. This hints at the possibility that they are doing something akin to proxy auto-config in their dialup software (which only exists for MacOS X now and should be unnecessary unless they are doing Odd Things)

Bill Cole

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